Huge fan of warning lables. At the store, I put one on the LdH Rosado because I was tired of people bringing it back because it was "off". Actually, I didn't get tired of it - because I got to finish the bottle. But fiscal responsibility won over my love of nearly 10 year-old pink-tinged wines and I slapped on a warning. -Christy
alicefeiring
· 5 months ago
Hi Christy, Love the wine and love the solution. People looking for fruit to POP should be saved from the LdH, because that means there;s more for us. Have you had negative reactions to the sign?
franklywines
· 5 months ago
We've had very good reaction to the sign. It literally says “Warning, we love this wine but it’s not typical for a rose. Ask us about it before you buy.” When we describe it, some people are intrigued and buy it and some are completely not into it and we just point them to something else. But at the very least, they’ve heard about a wine that’s unique and special and different from anything they’ve ever had before. And maybe someday, when they’re feeling more adventurous, they’ll remember the little warning sign and come back to try it. Or not….in which case I’ll just drink it!
Jeffrey Porter
· 5 months ago
Alice,
As a believer in "natural wines" (a term I continue to struggle with) - or more appropriately wines of substance, character, typicity, and complexity I find that instead of trying to challenge or harang people into drinking what you or I think is wine seems disingenuous and almost snobbish. When I started in the wine industry I did not immediately start drinking Vin Jaune, Savennieres, or Ribolla Gialla. I loved Ridge Zin, oaky Chardonnay, and big ol' Cabs, it was not until I continued to taste more wine, listen to those who had more experience and became open to more of what the world of wine had to offer. It was not an immediate switch but a gradual evolution to having a cellar stocked with what many find odd or strange. I firmly believe the vitriolic, angry and "holier than thou" attitudes being professed throughout the "blogosphere" is not the way to get the masses to move from KJ to D & R Crozes. We cannot look down upon those who want cherries and find acid and earth odd or strange. Moving from Coke to Chenin Blanc will take our continued patience and hard work to help other evolve their palate. We should not look down upon those that don't have all the information but educate. I agree that "natural wines" are not for everyone but looking down on those people is not going to move our cause forward.
Thank you,
Jeff
alicefeiring
· 5 months ago
Hello Jeff, The other day I was at Terroir in NYC for a gathering. There was a man there, a wine professional, saying how Williamsburg needs the wine bar he is going to bring them. Heavy on the California cults and Ausssie Shiraz, and the best of the fruitiest in Chile. I offered that I didn't think Williamsburg, who has a community has totally embraced a quirkier wine, was not the place for him, perhaps he should consider Soho or Midtown?
He started to --um--rip natural wines another asshole, as they say in the vernacular.
I found it extremely odd that he could be so out of touch. His palate is not mine. Mine is not his. I would be hard pressed to find anything I would like in his place.
I would wager that no one who is HAPPY buying wine according to the points can appreciate many of these wines. Holier than though? Maybe. Do people who prefer bitter chocolate to milk have a more sophisticated palate? Yes, I believe so. Is it better? Not really. Just different, and more, well appreciative of complexity.
It is essential to know your consumer. Having an all natural list in a place like that where many (most?) of the customer is not adventurous, is a risky situation. And if someone is looking for a rose (to grab from Christy) and has in their mind a strawberry fruited confection, they would be horrified at the Lopez de Heredia. If someone is looking for a syrah, they'd be mostly horrified by the Crozes.
So, if you don't like the warning solution, how do you proposed to educate? You really don't want to walk into a bee hive unprotected, do you?
Jeffrey Porter
· 5 months ago
I agree with many of your comments. Addressing the warning label, it is possibly semantics, but a mission statement (I always find humor a good way to get the point across - a mission statement is a bit silly but I could not think of another name) at the front of a wine list that states its purpose and invites those who are of less adventurous palates to understand the what/why/how/who/when of the wine list. Maybe it is the negative connotation of the the word warning that I don't like, if a guest comes to a bar, restaurant, or wine shop we should not warn them, as I do not believe there is any danger present. This is a difficult task, as a former wine director and now a retailer I deal with guests on a regular basis and have plenty of people tell me the don't like the biodynamic Chinon that I think is way better than sliced bread. I work hard to always preface that the wine is not like the Cabs of Napa, Malbecs of Argentina or Coke but offers a different experience. In addition to making it clear to guests what the wine list consists of, I always found it exciting to bring a taste of wine over no matter if they ordered it or not. Working in Napa Valley guests would sit out side during the summer and order big Cabs when it was 100 + degrees outside. I would slide them over a rose, or white from Alto Adige just so they could explore. I would not get through to everyone but the majority of the guests were super excited to find a new wine and venture into the unknown. As a retailer I now use our large displays to feature more unique, family owned estates that promote less intervention in their wine making. It is not always successful but it is more often than not.
As for the man who is going to "bring" his big wines to Williamsburg, good luck to him. I believe the issue that is irking me so much these days is this back and forth between the "naturalists" and the "Parkerites" (I feel this is a poltical debate the left v. the right). Each side has deep rooted feelings about what it thinks wine making is or is not, what the right/wrong palate is and where wine is going. It is not constructive for the industry as a whole for people to disparage (versus constructively criticize) either side, to rip the proverbial asshole into wines that each group may enjoy. The determination of one having a sophisticated palate is very subjective and totally up to one's interpretation of what makes a good palate. I always find that people are tasting what they are tasting but are misguided on understanding if a wine is well made or not. You may not like a specific varietal or wine making region but that wine still can be well made and good. I am not at all apologizing for those people who use Megapurple or any other additives to wines (I personally believe this is a no no), but I am trying to take a more pragmatic approach to get more people into the fold of choosing wines made by families, without much/if any intervention but many of the people I sell wine to have to learn how to walk before they can run. I greatly appreciate you being such a champion for the wines of Dressner and other who focus on wines from the land. I just hope we can keep tempers in check, continue to educate (with a smile on our face to those who disagree) and keep pouring wines even when people send it back. Thank you very much.
Jon
· 5 months ago
What happens when Abe Schoener's New York white from Red Hook shows up on tap there? That'll be an interesting challenge for Colin et. al.
SiduriWines
· 5 months ago
Alice,
FWIW, I have had a "corked" bottled of water before (screwcap). And TCA can affect a winery. So to say that the D&R didn't have TCA problems just because they use a synthetic stopper is a bit simplistic. -- But my guess would be that the customer didn't like brett. That has been my issue with D&R. Not natural or non, not fruit nor mineral....just too much brett for my taste.
Adam Lee Siduri Wines
Hank
· 5 months ago
Hmmm...is it really important to bring people over to the natural side? Is it important to "convert" people away from manufactured wine towards a more natural product? No...this is not a crusade, is it? Not everyone can enjoy some of these wines. In a way, that's good. I enjoy them for what they are (and a bit for what they are not), but who am I to say they are "better" than some "big" wine full of alcohol, oak and the latest technological fix for poor grape growing? I just don't care for those kinds of wine, but it doesn't bother me that others do. People who are interested in wine, truly fascinated by wine, will come around to try these "curiosities" at one point or another. They may even see the value and beauty in them. But not everyone will. Most folks just like a nice, fruity, non-challenging glass to go along with the conversation and the ambiance. I've had wines that are considered benchmarks in the natural wine circles that have left me nonplussed. I've had others that knocked my socks off. (I've also had bottles that were fantastic, only to find disinterest by others simply because they aren't "known" in the natural wine arena. But that's another topic.) I can appreciate all of them for what they represent - an attempt to make the wine entirely in the vineyard. For me, that's important. But most people could really care less. So be it.
Remy
· 5 months ago
I wholeheartedly agree with your post, Alice. Audience is key, when serving natural wines. Dropping a really wild bottle of natural Loire wines on an unsuspecting buyer of standard Aussie shiraz without warning can be a rather shocking experience for all involved.
Natural wines in the truest sense of the word require presentation. Having people taste a sip before serving the glass or bottle, telling people they are going to experience something different... seems pretty essential to me. Heck, I've seen people be puzzled by elegant Napa Cab at 13.8% alcohol because it isn't big and in your face...
Pouring the glasses without a word and then suggesting to the customer that he/she is wrong for not liking the wines is counterproductive. If the Yelp folks had gotten a bit of a description, they might not have liked the wines - and that's fine - but they wouldn't have felt as if they were being screwed.
Joe
· 5 months ago
Isn't the idea of putting a bull market Napa wine bar into a bear market neighborhood a bit odd?
Come to think of it, I can't think of a neighborhood that isn't bear market right now.
SFJ
mydailywine
· 5 months ago
I think healthy debate about natural vs. conventional wine is part of the education process. It is essential that wine lovers understand the wonderful diversity of wine available to them. But like Jeff, I want to avoid looking down at winedrinkers who do not embrace natural wines. I agree with Alice about different levels of tasting sophistication, however thats an opinion not a fact, and I cringe at the idea of natural wines being viewed or presented as elitist.
Wicker Parker Mike
· 4 months ago
The "skull and crossbones" box is actually a fantastic idea. As a side benefit, from a marketing perspective, I think a fair number of people would be drawn to such labeling (and if I saw a wine list with a section called "scary wines," I'd know that I'd found my home).
I've seen the "skull and crossbones" effect on a person-to-person level. When I once ordered an 05 Mosse Anjou Blanc, the server gave me a pained look and said, "Well, it's really sweet." Skull and crossbones. When I told her that I loved all kinds of Loire chenin, from dry to sweet, she happily served me a glass. When I tasted it — and it was completely dry, quite Savennieres-like — I was thrilled, and she was thrilled that I was thrilled, and she said, "I didn't know you knew your stuff!", and I knew that she knew the wine was both thrilling and dry. My server later explained that she was channeling the typical customer reaction, and we proceeded to have a nice chat about the Loire. The wine and the interaction made my night.
That experience said, even those of us used to off-the-beaten-path wines could benefit from a skull and crossbones label. For example, I had the 06 D&R Crozes-Hermitage recently and it tasted like tempeh, and so I found it more intellectually interesting than satisfying.
Raelinn
· 4 months ago
Had a fun conversation with a wine sales rep yesterday about brett. He is completely intolerant of it and considers it an absolute flaw, no matter the level of perceptibility. Natural wines are most definitely NOT for him. And that is okay. More for me! :o)
All Comments
-Christy
As a believer in "natural wines" (a term I continue to struggle with) - or more appropriately wines of substance, character, typicity, and complexity I find that instead of trying to challenge or harang people into drinking what you or I think is wine seems disingenuous and almost snobbish. When I started in the wine industry I did not immediately start drinking Vin Jaune, Savennieres, or Ribolla Gialla. I loved Ridge Zin, oaky Chardonnay, and big ol' Cabs, it was not until I continued to taste more wine, listen to those who had more experience and became open to more of what the world of wine had to offer. It was not an immediate switch but a gradual evolution to having a cellar stocked with what many find odd or strange. I firmly believe the vitriolic, angry and "holier than thou" attitudes being professed throughout the "blogosphere" is not the way to get the masses to move from KJ to D & R Crozes. We cannot look down upon those who want cherries and find acid and earth odd or strange. Moving from Coke to Chenin Blanc will take our continued patience and hard work to help other evolve their palate. We should not look down upon those that don't have all the information but educate. I agree that "natural wines" are not for everyone but looking down on those people is not going to move our cause forward.
Thank you,
Jeff
He started to --um--rip natural wines another asshole, as they say in the vernacular.
I found it extremely odd that he could be so out of touch. His palate is not mine. Mine is not his. I would be hard pressed to find anything I would like in his place.
I would wager that no one who is HAPPY buying wine according to the points can appreciate many of these wines. Holier than though? Maybe. Do people who prefer bitter chocolate to milk have a more sophisticated palate? Yes, I believe so. Is it better? Not really. Just different, and more, well appreciative of complexity.
It is essential to know your consumer. Having an all natural list in a place like that where many (most?) of the customer is not adventurous, is a risky situation. And if someone is looking for a rose (to grab from Christy) and has in their mind a strawberry fruited confection, they would be horrified at the Lopez de Heredia. If someone is looking for a syrah, they'd be mostly horrified by the Crozes.
So, if you don't like the warning solution, how do you proposed to educate? You really don't want to walk into a bee hive unprotected, do you?
This is a difficult task, as a former wine director and now a retailer I deal with guests on a regular basis and have plenty of people tell me the don't like the biodynamic Chinon that I think is way better than sliced bread. I work hard to always preface that the wine is not like the Cabs of Napa, Malbecs of Argentina or Coke but offers a different experience. In addition to making it clear to guests what the wine list consists of, I always found it exciting to bring a taste of wine over no matter if they ordered it or not. Working in Napa Valley guests would sit out side during the summer and order big Cabs when it was 100 + degrees outside. I would slide them over a rose, or white from Alto Adige just so they could explore. I would not get through to everyone but the majority of the guests were super excited to find a new wine and venture into the unknown. As a retailer I now use our large displays to feature more unique, family owned estates that promote less intervention in their wine making. It is not always successful but it is more often than not.
As for the man who is going to "bring" his big wines to Williamsburg, good luck to him. I believe the issue that is irking me so much these days is this back and forth between the "naturalists" and the "Parkerites" (I feel this is a poltical debate the left v. the right). Each side has deep rooted feelings about what it thinks wine making is or is not, what the right/wrong palate is and where wine is going. It is not constructive for the industry as a whole for people to disparage (versus constructively criticize) either side, to rip the proverbial asshole into wines that each group may enjoy. The determination of one having a sophisticated palate is very subjective and totally up to one's interpretation of what makes a good palate. I always find that people are tasting what they are tasting but are misguided on understanding if a wine is well made or not. You may not like a specific varietal or wine making region but that wine still can be well made and good. I am not at all apologizing for those people who use Megapurple or any other additives to wines (I personally believe this is a no no), but I am trying to take a more pragmatic approach to get more people into the fold of choosing wines made by families, without much/if any intervention but many of the people I sell wine to have to learn how to walk before they can run. I greatly appreciate you being such a champion for the wines of Dressner and other who focus on wines from the land. I just hope we can keep tempers in check, continue to educate (with a smile on our face to those who disagree) and keep pouring wines even when people send it back. Thank you very much.
FWIW, I have had a "corked" bottled of water before (screwcap). And TCA can affect a winery. So to say that the D&R didn't have TCA problems just because they use a synthetic stopper is a bit simplistic. -- But my guess would be that the customer didn't like brett. That has been my issue with D&R. Not natural or non, not fruit nor mineral....just too much brett for my taste.
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Not everyone can enjoy some of these wines. In a way, that's good. I enjoy them for what they are (and a bit for what they are not), but who am I to say they are "better" than some "big" wine full of alcohol, oak and the latest technological fix for poor grape growing? I just don't care for those kinds of wine, but it doesn't bother me that others do.
People who are interested in wine, truly fascinated by wine, will come around to try these "curiosities" at one point or another. They may even see the value and beauty in them. But not everyone will. Most folks just like a nice, fruity, non-challenging glass to go along with the conversation and the ambiance.
I've had wines that are considered benchmarks in the natural wine circles that have left me nonplussed. I've had others that knocked my socks off. (I've also had bottles that were fantastic, only to find disinterest by others simply because they aren't "known" in the natural wine arena. But that's another topic.) I can appreciate all of them for what they represent - an attempt to make the wine entirely in the vineyard. For me, that's important. But most people could really care less.
So be it.
Natural wines in the truest sense of the word require presentation. Having people taste a sip before serving the glass or bottle, telling people they are going to experience something different... seems pretty essential to me. Heck, I've seen people be puzzled by elegant Napa Cab at 13.8% alcohol because it isn't big and in your face...
Pouring the glasses without a word and then suggesting to the customer that he/she is wrong for not liking the wines is counterproductive. If the Yelp folks had gotten a bit of a description, they might not have liked the wines - and that's fine - but they wouldn't have felt as if they were being screwed.
Come to think of it, I can't think of a neighborhood that isn't bear market right now.
SFJ
But like Jeff, I want to avoid looking down at winedrinkers who do not embrace natural wines.
I agree with Alice about different levels of tasting sophistication, however thats an opinion not a fact, and I cringe at the idea of natural wines being viewed or presented as elitist.
I've seen the "skull and crossbones" effect on a person-to-person level. When I once ordered an 05 Mosse Anjou Blanc, the server gave me a pained look and said, "Well, it's really sweet." Skull and crossbones. When I told her that I loved all kinds of Loire chenin, from dry to sweet, she happily served me a glass. When I tasted it — and it was completely dry, quite Savennieres-like — I was thrilled, and she was thrilled that I was thrilled, and she said, "I didn't know you knew your stuff!", and I knew that she knew the wine was both thrilling and dry. My server later explained that she was channeling the typical customer reaction, and we proceeded to have a nice chat about the Loire. The wine and the interaction made my night.
That experience said, even those of us used to off-the-beaten-path wines could benefit from a skull and crossbones label. For example, I had the 06 D&R Crozes-Hermitage recently and it tasted like tempeh, and so I found it more intellectually interesting than satisfying.